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hk's avatar

I've had three reactions to your latest post. (Oops, this was accidentally posted to a wrong thread...)

1. Early proponents of Liberalism were very well aware of the paradox, between virtue in public office (and those who selected those who enter it--i.e. the publics) and individualism/self interest. Oddly enough, in US, while people love to quote James Madison about "ambition checking ambition" and other such things, very few are aware of the following gem (from his speech to the Virginia (Constitutional) Ratifying Convention:

I have observed, that gentlemen suppose, that the general legislature will do every mischief they possibly can, and that they will omit to do every thing good which they are authorised to do. If this were a reasonable supposition, their objections would be good. I consider it reasonable to conclude, that they will as readily do their duty, as deviate from it: Nor do I go on the grounds mentioned by gentlemen on the other side--that we are to place unlimited confidence in them, and expect nothing but the most exalted integrity and sublime virtue. But I go on this great republican principle, that the people will have virtue and intelligence to select men of virtue and wisdom. Is there no virtue among us? If there be not, we are in a wretched situation. No theoretical checks--no form of government can render us secure. To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or happiness without any virtue in the people, is a chimerical idea. If there be sufficient virtue and intelligence in the community, it will be exercised in the selection of these men. So that we do not depend on their virtue, or put confidence in our rulers, but in the people who are to choose them.

2. The relationship between private interest and public virtue is not, well, an individual phenomenon. Fukuzawa Yukichi, 19th century Japanese philosopher and educator who played a major role in shaping the modern Japan described an interesting exchange with his superior from the days when he was serving as a translator for the Shogunate government in his memoires. His superior instructed him to go abroad and find useful foreign books. Fukuzawa responded by saying what a great idea it was, since Japan badly needs more exposure to foreign ideas and he'd do his best to seek out the most useful books and make sure that they are as widely distributed as possible. The official "corrected" him by saying that the idea is to have this operation as a revenue generating device for the government, since the demand for foreign books in Japan is so great. (Note that this is not even a private profiteering scheme, per se--but a means to raise revenue for the state, i.e. the "public," at least in principle, at a time when Japan also needed more revenue for all sorts of things.) Fukuzawa responded to this by saying that he cannot participate in such a scheme, unless he got a cut. He will do things without compensation if it is for "public's good," but not if the scheme is to simply make money. So a peculiar paradox that I've seen elsewhere, too: people don't want to participate selflessly in schemes that are just for raising money--even if the money is not necessarily for private profit (and even the schemes like what the Japanese official described, an "honest" revenue raising scheme for the state, are rare). The state/public has to show its good intentions by foreswearing profit in order to get talented people to sacrifice their own personal gains. Of course, no project nowadays--even public projects--operates on the premise that it will lose money, because of the widespread economistic thinking that everyone is ultimately a little self-serving "profit seeker," even if "profit" is defined broadly (i.e. ensuring that their individual sense of righteousness is advanced through their actions, regardless of the "public")

3. On a personal side, these were exactly the questions that made me go into social sciences (and a briefly thought about becoming a Jesuit--that obviously did not happen), but I was deeply disappointed that there was absolutely no interest in this sort of thinking--except, maybe, if you were an old graybeard who had no interest in advancing career and remained intellectually curious, who were very rare. The thing that bugged me more than others was that none of students I'd had (at a middling large US state university) seemed to get Weber (or the version of Madison that showed up at the Virginia Ratifying Convention)., so absorbed they were to the notion of self-centered individualism. (again, defined broadly: their idea of "public mindedness" was that, since I value my righteousness more than doing what other people think is right and making money doing the latter, I should be respected. A peculiar perversion of the usual notion about self-serving individualism.)

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Michael Meo's avatar

Since you're quoting Max Weber, and you're concerning yourself with the features of a bureaucracy which displays honesty and integrity, you do yourself no favors by not discussing the work of The Great Elector, Frederick William I, Elector of Brandenburg (1620- 1688).

It was during the reign of 'Der Grosse Kurfurst' that the Prussian royal service was subjected to an extraordinary regime of personal surveillance by the monarch (cf. Hans Rosenberg, Bureaucracy, Aristocracy, and Autocracy. The Prussian Experience, 1660 - 1813.), as a result of which the understanding grew that aristocratic birth was no defense against suspicion of corruption.

Throughout the European Continent, throughout the 19th century, the Prussian bureaucracy was renowned for its devotion to honesty and transparency; it was from that model that Weber drew for his commentary.

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