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Veronica's avatar

A very interesting piece, and one which describes a great deal of what actually goes on in government, or indeed businesses or any long-term collective exercise - thanks to your lifetime of experience.

It has appeared to me that there is more than one perception of the current usage of the phrase. The one you are addressing is certainly out there, and is not one to which I would subscribe. But my allowance for the existence of something I would call the deep state is more historical. You describe it in your piece here, which is the fact that governments (both elected and bureaucratic) have a great deal more "information" to sift through than the general public, and will make decisions based on things that they won't necessarily want to talk about, probably much of which relates to not wanting to open another can of worms. But while "thinking Gaddafi was about to fall, and wanting to claim credit" might possibly be an explanation for Clinton cackling about it in an interview, it still shows up an intent to benefit that is not talked about openly or subject to "democratic" scrutiny - a state deeper and less visible than the one we normally see. The invasion of Iraq was a catastrophic decision, presumably made for potential benefit, but with a pretty elaborate set of lies and false narratives to bolster it. Maybe all made up on the run, but seems more likely it was some invisible person's bright idea that wasn't talked about opening. That, to me, is the deep state - the origin of decisions that are recognized to have purposes most decent people wouldn't agree to, so they're given a gloss of false narrative. It sounds superficial, except that the consequences are so ghastly for so many. I don't think it hurts to recognize that power is most often wielded by people out of the public eye, and the more chaotic things are, the more opportunity for those individual interests to be pursued. Given that government tends to collect a particular type of person, and those with a taste for the uses of power will try hardest to get there, it's not unreasonable to think that there is a degree of private pushing of public agendas.

This is not the conspiratorial "Deep State" you are contending with in your piece, but I just wanted to put in a word for a not unreasonable suspicion that a hell of a lot goes on under the radar, with intentional help, even if this is not coherently long-term or generational.

I never cease to be grateful for the thoughtfulness of your pieces, and the thoughts they provoke!

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Jan's avatar

Interesting article. However you seem to put aside the Italian (and west european) experience with Gladio and other stay behind networks.

I think that OlavTunander's article "Democratic State vs Deep State: Approaching the Dual State of the West" gives sufficient evidence of the existence of parallel structures within the Western democracies.

This has of course nothing to do with naratives re conspiracies.

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